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1 freetoken  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 3:37:06am
2 jvic  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 4:17:31am

1. I worked at a start-up in which top management compensated themselves waaay out of proportion to the time they put in and the contributions they made. I don't dispute that too much wealth is concentrated in too few hands.

But I'd like to see proposals other than higher taxes to rectify this.

2. With a progressive income tax, the government's revenues are maximized when the nation's total income is concentrated in the highest bracket (all else being equal). It's not implausible that, irrespective of its rhetoric, the government will institute policies that maximize its revenues. It's not implausible that that results in...a system not drastically different from the one we have today: an arrangement from which the government and the wealthy both benefit although they find it expedient to exaggerate their differences.

Just sayin'.

3 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 5:27:14am

So… what are the social effects perpetuating this social illusion?

4 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 5:32:04am

re: #2 jvic

Except when there's more money being spent at the lower levels, there's less the government needs to spend on.

5 jvic  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 10:45:57am

re: #4 Obdicut

Except when there's more money being spent at the lower levels, there's less the government needs to spend on.

Every bureaucracy I've dealt with--corporate, nonprofit, government--tries to expand its budget, size, and mission. Their stated rationales are rarely illegitimate on their face.

6 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 12:12:56pm

re: #2 jvic

2. With a progressive income tax, the government's revenues are maximized when the nation's total income is concentrated in the highest bracket (all else being equal).

Yes, assuming the the total amount of income is fixed and ignoring government outlays which increase with the percentage of people in poverty. Also all things aren't equal. Social Security for instance has a salary cap, so concentrating the wealth into the highest income tax bracket, and attendantly fewer payers, means that SS takes in less as more and more income becomes exempt.

7 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 12:22:24pm

re: #3 000G

So… what are the social effects perpetuating this social illusion?

PBS Newshour has a good segment on this in which they interview various people including one of the study's authors. One of the causes is explained as a greater level of inequality existing in our society is as a whole than in it's constituent parts, or local communities. The interviewees explain it in terms of our being insulated, combined with the fact that the gains are mostly out of sight, going to the very top.

8 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 12:36:44pm

re: #5 jvic

Every bureaucracy I've dealt with--corporate, nonprofit, government--tries to expand its budget, size, and mission. Their stated rationales are rarely illegitimate on their face.

Iron law of oligarchy

9 Obdicut  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 4:28:10pm

re: #5 jvic

Every bureaucracy I've dealt with--corporate, nonprofit, government--tries to expand its budget, size, and mission. Their stated rationales are rarely illegitimate on their face.

How is that a response to what I said? Is this just a blanket "Government will just always grow and there's nothing we can do about it" thing?

10 jvic  Sat, Oct 15, 2011 9:34:36pm

1. re: #9 Obdicut

re: #5 jvic

Every bureaucracy I've dealt with--corporate, nonprofit, government--tries to expand its budget, size, and mission. Their stated rationales are rarely illegitimate on their face.

How is that a response to what I said? Is this just a blanket "Government will just always grow and there's nothing we can do about it" thing?

Whether or not that's true, it's not what I'm getting at.

Many in the bottom quintile are clients of the social-services bureaucracy. If the incomes of that quintile began rising significantly via some unspecified process, practical politics as I understand it implies that that bureaucracy would look for reasons to get involved with that process and to remain involved with the clientele.

Similarly--similarly, not equivalently--, there are those who say that defense cuts are unthinkable because we need a strong defense.

That we need a strong defense and a social safety net is beside my point.

2. re: #8 000G

Iron law of oligarchy

Thanks for the link. The few in the oligarchy are...maybe one or few percent?

It was worth my time to click through to the Iron Law of Bureaucracy.

11 Obdicut  Sun, Oct 16, 2011 2:34:28am

re: #10 jvic

Many in the bottom quintile are clients of the social-services bureaucracy. If the incomes of that quintile began rising significantly via some unspecified process, practical politics as I understand it implies that that bureaucracy would look for reasons to get involved with that process and to remain involved with the clientele.

What on earth does it mean to be 'involved with that process' and who are the 'clientele'?

12 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 16, 2011 5:46:33am

re: #7 goddamnedfrank

PBS Newshour has a good segment on this in which they interview various people including one of the study's authors. One of the causes is explained as a greater level of inequality existing in our society is as a whole than in it's constituent parts, or local communities. The interviewees explain it in terms of our being insulated, combined with the fact that the gains are mostly out of sight, going to the very top.

So it's a (feedback loop sort of) process of socio-economic insulation derived from the actual accumulation of wealth generated more and more only at the very top that results in more and more people or communities in a proximity to each other that is close enough to be relevant for conscious experience having more similar than unsimilar levels of wealth (wage stagnation etc.), thus enforcing the perception of wealth equality that seems correct because the top where any actual wealth accumulation actually occurs is less and less known by most Americans.

Now, what's the remedy?


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